I had the opportunity of having an online debate with members on another website this past week. Let me get a few things straight upfront:
First, let me be very straight forward on saying that the debate was about a NOH8 Campaign (http://www.noh8campaign.com) public service announcement and the hotly debated California’s Proposition 8.
Secondly, let me be very straight forward that I don’t know the ages of the individuals I was debating against. I asked that at the beginning of the discussion and never received a response.
Thirdly, let be very straight forward that I debated two things and two things only during this debate: 1) That marriage is not a right; it is a privilege, and 2) The Laws of Nature.
Now you’re probably interested to know where this debate took place. Well, in all honesty it took place on a Blink-182 fan website (http://www.182online.com). Right now many of you are thinking or saying out load, “Tony! Why did you waste your time on a punk rock band’s website debating Proposition 8?” I like to try to set certain things straight when it comes to Proposition 8 and the so-called “marriage right.”
You can view the full debate on the 182-Online Debate Forum at:
http://www.182online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3570
Here is the NOH8 PSA that sparked this whole debate and I have taken the time to provide a transcript of this ad.
NOH8 PSA – “I’m Coming Out…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7KUENa4OrQ
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Woman 1: I'm coming out.
Male 1: I'm coming out.
Woman 2 and Male 2: We're coming out for equal rights.
Woman 3: Denying a minority the same rights you were born with...
Woman 4: Is hate.
Male 3: Refusing to separate church and state...
Woman 5: Is hate.
Woman 6: Spending millions to eliminate someone's right to family...
Woman 7: Is hate.
Woman 2: Prop 8 is just the beginning.
Male 4: Our fight goes deeper then marriage equality.
Woman 4: It's about human right.
Woman 3: Same rights for every America in every State.
Woman 8: Thousands all over the country are speaking out.
Male 2: But it's not enough.
Woman 4: Now more then ever it is time to get involved.
Woman 9: That's where you come in.
Woman 1: Start a dialogue.
Woman 6: Stand up for your peers.
Woman 8: Get educated.
Woman 3: Keep an open mind.
Male 5: Talk to your friends.
Male 4: Talk to your family.
Woman 7: Write your representative.
Woman 5: Be heard.
Woman 9: No matter where you are.
Woman 2: Tell them who you are.
Woman 1: Tell them what you stand for.
Several: Fight, fight for equal rights, equal rights. And together, together we can make our voices heard. No hate, no hate, no hate.
Announcer: Learn more about how you can be heard through our silent protest at www.noh8campaign.com
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I would like you to note that I am not against the NOH8 Campaign's right, yes, right, to the First Amendment - The Freedom of Speech and of the Press. This isn't what I argued in this debate. I argued two things in this debate at 182-Online: 1) The so-called "marriage right", and 2) Laws of Nature.
I will not bore you with details to that debate. If you'd like you can follow the link above and read the debate for yourself.
What sparked my interest in this advertisement is several things:
1) Six times in the first part of this ad the word "right" was used.
2) Nine times it mentions about speaking out, start a dialogue, talk, write, and be heard.
Well, if there is a fight for "equal rights" why then the very ad these individuals were defending did they say this (please forgive the language):
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* "FUCK THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE, ITS NOT YOUR LIFE, ITS THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET MARRIED. Sorry for the caps, but honestly, people who are against gay marriage...just piss me the fuck off."
* "i mean really, it's all preference. everyone has their own rights. just keep it private (that's my opinion)"
* "I advise you to educate yourself before you come on here and start a debate on such a topic."
* "None of your points have made an impact on me, and it just makes me push farther to voice my opinion for gay marriage and eradicate the intolerance against it. I don't even think you understand what it means. Your points are strongly biased, and clearly you're not supportive of their lifestyle. There's essentially no point of debating this further for me."
* "Charles A. Hole, you are wrong, you are a bigot, you are wrong, your views are totally wrong, thats it, thats all there is to it."
* "stop beating around the bush A. Hole, sorry, A. Hall, either your pro gay marriage, or your not, which is it?"
* "Holy shit batman! Charles, you are fucking retarded in every sense of the god damn word. Everyone stop replying to this non sense, he is not looking for a debate. He's just trolling."
* "My suggestion is that you keep your opinions to yourself or just to your website."
* "Jimmy he is your brother so you are instantly biased....obviously he can defend himself and his views on his own, so don't be all like "Oh you guys are all hypocrites" STFU"
* "It was discussed for four pages, so it's not like we silenced anyone." (See several comments above about wanting to silence the debate and me.)
* "The words "go fuck yourself asshole" come to mind."
* "...therefore your a dumbshit, you cant make up your own mind so you live your life by a made up story book, your an idiot."
----------------
What shocks me is that there is such a Double Standard of Free Speech in the United States of America as shown above.
Right now there are Town Halls happening all over the United States about Nationalized Health Care (AKA ObamaCare) and people are protesting the bill (HR 3200 is just one of them). Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) have called these people "un-American." The Democratic National Committee have called these people "The Right-wing Extremist Mob."
I spoke out on this NOH8 Campaign PSA and I was met with some debate, but was mainly attacked on the grounds everything I was "supposedly" saying was religious when in fact I never said anything about religion because I learned that lesson when I was a senior at Sequim High School.
There is a double standard to Freedom of Speech in America and it is ridiculous! If you have an issue you want to present you should expect that the opposite view will come about. Don't say that you are being denied a right that doesn't exist and then turn around and deny someone their actual right of free speech (i.e. "My suggestion is that you keep your opinions to yourself or just to your website.").
I want to speak out against Nationalized Health Care (AKA ObamaCare) and I am "un-America."
I want to speak out against this so-called "right" to marriage and I am displaying "hate."
Where does it end? Why is it only one sided? Why is it that if they (Pelosi and NOH8) speak out that is okay and when I speak out with an opposite view I'm "un-American" and a "hater" of Americans. Why? Why? Why?
There is a Double Standard to Free Speech in America and it is one-sided those like Pelosi and NOH8 Campaign it is okay, but those on the other side should be silenced.
I went to bed last night (Sunday, 23 August 2009) very sad, on the verge of breaking down and crying because of what I'm seeing in America (ask my wife!). A country divided when our current President Barack Hussein Obama (ON THE RECORD: I didn't vote for him.) promised to "unite" the country but has done nothing but further divide it through Cap and Trade and now through Nationalized Health Care. I am feeling depressed and sad on what I am seeing. But you know what? Since I am a Conservative and from the other side of the fence I should be denied my First Amendment RIGHT - The Right to Free Speech.
Yes, I'm sorry but when someone says "My suggestion is that you keep your opinions to yourself or just to your website" is an attack on my Freedom of Speech, whether you agree with me or not.
There is a Double Standard of Free Speech in America and it is just shocking...
Monday, August 24, 2009
Sunday, August 16, 2009
Not a Christian Nation?
Not a Christian Nation?
I had someone recommend a book to me entitled “American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation” by Jon Meacham and so far it is an interesting book. Not too long ago I was in a discussion on the Our Country Deserves Better PAC Facebook group discussion board about a statement given by President Barack Hussein Obama in Turkey:
“President Barack Obama stated at a press conference in Turkey last week that we Americans “do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Muslim nation, but rather, a nation of citizens who are, uh, bound by a set of values.”” (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/election/1003)
The discussion I had with several individuals was using the base of America’s founding documents: the Declaration of Independent and the Constitution of the United States of America.
Paragraph one of the Declaration of Independence: “…Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...”
Paragraph two of the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Paragraph thirty-two of the Declaration of Independence: “…appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions…”
Final paragraph of the United States Constitution: “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.”
“Nature’s God”, “Creator”, “Supreme Judge”, and “Year of our Lord” … They all reflect God, but which God? Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship different gods? I do not believe so. Were the Founding Fathers talking about just the Christianity? America was called the “great melting pot” or maybe not. But do I believe that America was established as a Christian nation in the “new world”? I believe so!
Again, the argument is that the Founding Fathers were not talking about the Christian God, just a god. I disagree. I had this thought: there are three major religions in the world today (Christianity in all its varieties, Judaism, and Islam). Now let’s go back to 1776, the year of American Independence was declared.
According to page twenty-eight of “The Churching of America, 1776-2005: winners and losers in our religious economy” by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark they list the number of congregations in America in 1776. After checking out several of the different congregations listed I found that many are off-shoots of Christianity but they only list that there were five congregations that were Jewish and no Islam congregations in America at that time.
So it is a viable defense to say that America was never a Christian nation at the time of its founding? I would say no, because there really wasn’t any other religion in America at the time of the founding other then Christianity. Yes, I would agree that we are a “melting pot” of people in the United States of America in this day and age, but I do not agree that we should abandon the principles in which the Founding Fathers established the United States of America on: a belief in God and a basis of Christianity.
I had someone recommend a book to me entitled “American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation” by Jon Meacham and so far it is an interesting book. Not too long ago I was in a discussion on the Our Country Deserves Better PAC Facebook group discussion board about a statement given by President Barack Hussein Obama in Turkey:
“President Barack Obama stated at a press conference in Turkey last week that we Americans “do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Muslim nation, but rather, a nation of citizens who are, uh, bound by a set of values.”” (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/election/1003)
The discussion I had with several individuals was using the base of America’s founding documents: the Declaration of Independent and the Constitution of the United States of America.
Paragraph one of the Declaration of Independence: “…Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...”
Paragraph two of the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Paragraph thirty-two of the Declaration of Independence: “…appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions…”
Final paragraph of the United States Constitution: “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.”
“Nature’s God”, “Creator”, “Supreme Judge”, and “Year of our Lord” … They all reflect God, but which God? Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship different gods? I do not believe so. Were the Founding Fathers talking about just the Christianity? America was called the “great melting pot” or maybe not. But do I believe that America was established as a Christian nation in the “new world”? I believe so!
Again, the argument is that the Founding Fathers were not talking about the Christian God, just a god. I disagree. I had this thought: there are three major religions in the world today (Christianity in all its varieties, Judaism, and Islam). Now let’s go back to 1776, the year of American Independence was declared.
According to page twenty-eight of “The Churching of America, 1776-2005: winners and losers in our religious economy” by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark they list the number of congregations in America in 1776. After checking out several of the different congregations listed I found that many are off-shoots of Christianity but they only list that there were five congregations that were Jewish and no Islam congregations in America at that time.
So it is a viable defense to say that America was never a Christian nation at the time of its founding? I would say no, because there really wasn’t any other religion in America at the time of the founding other then Christianity. Yes, I would agree that we are a “melting pot” of people in the United States of America in this day and age, but I do not agree that we should abandon the principles in which the Founding Fathers established the United States of America on: a belief in God and a basis of Christianity.
Monday, August 3, 2009
Divorce Agreement
My wife just sent this to me in a chain mail and I liked it:
DIVORCE AGREEMENT
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY WELL PUT AND I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT'S BY A YOUNG PERSON, A STUDENT!!! WHATEVER HE RUNS FOR, I'LL VOTE FOR HIM.
American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists
And Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has run its course.
Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.
We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military.
You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell(You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them).
We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood .
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us.. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values.. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N.. But we will no longer be paying the bill.
We'll keep the SUVs, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.
You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World.
We'll practice trickle down economics and you can give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.
Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you Answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student and an American
P.S. Also, please take Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin Sheehan, Barbara Streisand, & Jane Fonda with you.
P. S. S. And we won't have to press 1 for English.
DIVORCE AGREEMENT
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY WELL PUT AND I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT'S BY A YOUNG PERSON, A STUDENT!!! WHATEVER HE RUNS FOR, I'LL VOTE FOR HIM.
American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists
And Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has run its course.
Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.
We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military.
You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell(You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them).
We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood .
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us.. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values.. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N.. But we will no longer be paying the bill.
We'll keep the SUVs, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.
You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World.
We'll practice trickle down economics and you can give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.
Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you Answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student and an American
P.S. Also, please take Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin Sheehan, Barbara Streisand, & Jane Fonda with you.
P. S. S. And we won't have to press 1 for English.
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